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December 06, 2007

Comments

Mark

I've studied the Mormon, Apostolic and United Pentecostal, and J. Witness religions. I love listening to these people speak about their "faith" in something they can't see or touch. You might say...it's all around you. Based on Science, Astronomy, and all of that-we were not created in 6 days. I believe there is a Creator...but not the one the that writes in books through humans. Not the God that shows you were these "missing templates" are-only to let you copy them and then send them back to "heaven"
These are smart people that are using those who do believe. They don't believe!

ADifferentKim

Just to confuse things a bit, here's a believing Mormon who wants a country that's safe and inviting for atheists. I loved Romney's one-sentence defense of the necessity of freedom to authentic religious experience. But I saw (and can imagine) no defense of the alleged reciprocal necessity of religion. What makes anyone think that "freedom requires religion?" I don't get that.

For him to even consider splitting 'non-believers and believers' is just like the GOP saying Muslims don't want to convert you, they want to Kill you. HAHAHA.

No one is a believer until they are found. If you split this Country the religion will die. Those who grow up in Religion somehow fall away, yet feel emotionally raped because they actually believe it. That's abuse.

Richard Colbert

As a non-religious person I am the very first to state "humanity needs religion". Most of humanity lacks the intellectual capacity to reconcile their place in the universe and thus establish a base of moral and ethical conduct without a religious system to tell them how to behave. Scientists have proven over and over that atheists, agnostics, etc. are more intellectual and enlightened than believers. Without religions for the masses to guide their behavior it would be utter chaos.

Therefore, as an atheist (the write of this blog post)should possess a higher level of intellect and therefore both respect and cherish Mr. Romney's belief that freedom and religion are inexplicably linked together.

All he was saying is that without religion (definitive sets of moral and ethical guidelines to guide the masses) there could be no freedom. Or conversely without freedom there can be no practicing of one's beliefs.

Ben R.

"This country was founded for monotheists by monotheists."

We will never know actually. When the risk of professing non-belief is subjection and death by mob or state sponsored violence, you will find few that are willing to do so openly.

The likes of Paine and Jefferson came remarkably close - especially when one considers their limited knowledge at the time; knowledge that we now possess about the origins of life and the universe that render a deity superfluous.

Jason

Being free means having the opportunity to celebrate one's belief. Or alternately, one's non-belief. Romney was celebrating his belief, and connecting with others who feel similarly.

If Romney was an atheist, wouldn't you expect him to celebrate freedom from mysticism and a dawning age of reason?

The last few sentences clearly indicate the author's feelings about people who follow a religion. They are "held in thrall to a destructive myth".

I often hear atheists breathlessly anticipating the passage of religion into our collective memory. I seldom hear the opposite.

ADifferentKim

Richard,

Your argument seems to claim that religion is necessary to public order and cohesion, rather than to freedom. Now it may be that freedom can't exist without such order, but an honest appraisal of history should also admit that religion can be just as much (or more) an enemy of freedom as it defender. It's a fine line that the founders hoped we would walk and from which we have lately been straying badly.

Nick Taylor

Yea - I mean that business with the flood? Drowning everything on Earth except for two of every species and some people with beards?

I know the devil's supposed to be the bad guy, but he never did anything as bad as that.

Stop trolling

@ Adam Tan, Please stop trolling. It is obvious that comments such as your are only intending to provoke an angry response. Suggesting that we should "First solidify the religion requirement for full citizenship. Later, make the non-believers the "other" and persecute them." makes it clear you are not serious. Let people have a real conversation.

Josh

"This country was founded for monotheists by monotheists. FMBM. If you don’t like it, leave and start an atheist country somewhere. Otherwise step off. Atheists do more harm than good by trying to re-write history - regardless of your intention. You’re allowed to live here in freedom – be happy for that."

I don't know where to begin, but let's say that I felt utter disgust in reading that post. Created for monotheists BY monotheists? The reasoning there is absurd. Whilst we have the threat of radical Islam extremists trying to kill infidels (aka monotheists hating other monotheists), you have the nerve to make such a silly comment like that. It's mentalities like yours that start wars.

How is favouring a society that doesn't have men in charge who let thier faiths dictate thier ways of life rewriting history? I can sense Muslims and other monotheists alike who may cringe when Bush has to include his divenly inspired ramblings to explain the desicions he makes. A good president is a rational president, not some superstitious hack.

Charb

I just heard an interview on NPR with an analyst who quoted some numbers suggesting that "secularization" is on the rise, and that god-talk will decreasingly be a part of public discourse going forward -- a comforting thought, and it rings true so long as demogoguery doesn't whip the nation into (further) hysterics.

I, too, am troubled by some of the language in the speech for the same reasons you are.

Add us non-members of mass religions to the ever lengthening list of groups excluded from the GOP. History will not look kindly upon this, but the Christian Right base will.

Ex Christian

To: Adam Tan
You act as a militant Christian. Yet, that's an oxymoron. A true Christian doesn't Judge other people-no matter what!

You can't buy or kill your way to heaven. You must become one with yourself and the Holy Spirit. Good luck with that buddy.

Woeful

Politicians only care about votes, it's their currency, so things will only change when atheists are as politically powerful as the Religious Right. Sadly, they don't need your vote, so you don't matter right now. Maybe someday atheists will have political clout... Until then, get used to being isolated.

scilfish

"This country was founded for monotheists by monotheists. FMBM. If you don’t like it, leave and start an atheist country somewhere."

Wow. That's the most offensive thing I've read in weeks. The country was also founded by white men who owned slaves and didn't think women should have the right to vote. Should everyone who disagrees leave the country as well?

Rick Barnes

I can not help but wonder at what America is becoming. It seems the USA is trying desperately to remove its self from participating in the 21 century.

The inclusion of religion in an election has failed in Canada for 50 years as it has in most of Europe.

The USA is continues to march to a different beat, retreating to the times of their ancestors.

A time when religion dictated the way we saw the world. Romney and other Republicans joined the Evangelical parade and to be fair, most Democrats rush to appeal to this same demographic.

The most untrusted person in the USA according to a recent poll was an atheist. They were way ahead of even those vile homosexuals.

In a land that prides itself on freedom, why is one's freedom not to be a christian so distrusted.

Romney is a symptom of a problem. He may advance it further if he wins no doubt, but the problem over all is the electoral system that allows a minority of Evangelicals to control the outcome.

Unless people can be motivated to participate, this small but organized group will lead America closer to a theocray, something your ancestors left the old world for in the first place.

America has contributed much to the world, 7 years of GWB and the election of Romney will see that all that America meant, all its good deeds, thrown out in the trash.

Wake up America, the world needs you and i shudder to think what America will do if you dont wake up.


craig

I'm impressed with the hatred and intolerance being expressed by both atheists and non-atheists alike. You should all be so proud. I'd expect that from the atheists. What is your excuse, Christians?

Atheists like to argue their belief system is the opposite of religion because it makes them feel superior. Atheists can no more prove the existence of no God than believers can prove otherwise. Atheism is a belief system just as any religion is, so whether it is a "religion" is simply arguing the definition of the word, nothing more. We all believe what we believe, and none of us are better than anyone else because of it. I do find it amusing how condescending the atheist mentality is, though. Atheists embrace all the negative aspects they despise in the religious and they frequently crank them up to eleven.

I say all this not as a Christian, but as an atheist.

Brouhaha

"Atheists can no more prove the existence of no God than believers can prove otherwise."

Pointless discussion.

Call me an agnostic then.

You don't have to prove a negative.

Me

Anyone who bases their decisions on "Faith" rather than reliably demonstrated evidence is a dangerous dangerous person. How am I to expect to trust this man as president when he will blindly accept some bullshit some charlatan tells him because they say it's from the authority of god.

john

I would think this is probably all moot anyway. If I am not mistaken, Romney is running on the Pub ticket & Shrub has done a pretty fair job of denigrating the shite out of that good old party. It is disturbing to see Dems lining up at the superstition trough though.

ShockedByShocked

Faith is a destructive, exclusionary myth. You look forward to when the centrality of "religion" in America is considered a relic. You, as others pointed out, cherish the "separation clause" of the First Amendment but make no mention of the Establishment Clause.

I've practically quoted you in my summary - in all honesty correct me where I am wrong.

These sentiments are far scarier to me that some Mormon running for politics. That you would exclude the Establishment Clause, hope for the day that there's really no reason for it (since faith is now a relic), and that you demean those with faith - this is the frightening part. You are the vanguard of physical persecution of those who possess and exercise their freedom of faith.

Ben

I'm not Romney fan, but what he's saying is true. Even if you are sure that there is no God and that we can rely completely on science, you must allow other people to disagree.

John

Don't worry, he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected.

John

Our constitution not only preserves the rights of freedom OF religion, it also protects the right of freedom FROM religion.

Why faith becomes a plank in any political platform is a travesty of American politics. Keep the preaching in the pews and focus on issues based on fact, not on faith.

GQ

You should be secure enough in your atheism to not seriously live in fear of politicians forcing religion on you. I feel for your children if you go through your day fretting about these things. Be a man. If you are brave enough to stake out the minority of the mainstream, accept the consequences of that decision. Which means that you may enjoy freedom of religion but not freedom from it. The influence will still be there from all angles of society and its leaders. You have to accept that. If you really want to whine, well who has time to hear you on that? Some people have real problems, don't you think you shouldn't make up imaginary and petty ones?

geech

you seem like a nice rational person, do yourself a favor and move to canada, our politians do not cater to the religious nutjobs.

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