« Being a "Grown-Up" But Also an Equal: the Challenge for Parents and Politicians | Main | Romney the Weatherman, Huckabee the Weather »

December 06, 2007

Comments

Kent Harris

Well written, but still I disagree on the merit that this was a speech given in the Bible Belt, aiming to appease Christian voters - a major constituency that he needs to win over by a long shot. If by odd chance he were to win the nomination and then go onto be president (not likely), religion wouldn't come up probably even half as much as it does under the current administration. I think we have 5 major media outlets that are run by religious zealots (both Jewish and Neo-Christian conservative) that play this card as to imply that religion is more on the general population's mind that it is in reality. Don't retreat and give up hope. It is the people that truly are thoughtful and care about this world that have to keep their will focused to a better day for this country, for this planet.

Dominoakis

This country was founded for monotheists by monotheists. FMBM. Let's be a bit more accurate. Yes the country was set up FMBM although I agree if Jefferson and others had the evidence we have. They were just about done with hocus pocus as it was. But what I wanted to add is what really happened was that mono theists stole the land from Native Americans. What were they? Is it ok if we steal it too?

Kent Harris

Atheism is not a religion. Sam Harris once stated that we should even give it the name "atheism". I am am not a biologist so does that make me a "non-biologist"? no...

Some people do not believe in a collection of books that were written by men thousands of years ago. Regardless. I think there is a place for religious and non-religious people in this world. It is time that we learn to live together and consider that NONE of us REALLY know how we got here and when we are leaving (collectively). Until we do -let's all STFU and get a long a little bettter and fix the issues we CAN fix TOGETHER. (e.g. educational system, healthcare, our reputation in the world, Iraq, all of the hate and division, the fact that I just ran out of ice cream - CRAP!

Robert R

It's very simple

Injecting Christianity into government is tantamount to forcing *everyone* to practice Christianity.

This is what the religious right wants, and it is so diametrically opposed to freedom of religion that it is ridiculous.

Here's a thought experiment for the religious right - imagine that Muslims held political power in this country -- and wanted to inject "religion" into the government (e.g. forcing Muslim policies into law)

How would the religious right react then? Would they be so eager to put "religion" into "government"?

Just let everyone alone, and stop trying to force your religion into public policy.

Dominoakis

Kent, I really am of the same sentiment as you, I could care less what anyone else cares to believe, I have no clue what happens next. But there's still a problem when I have to sit down and consider how to, for instance, fix the education system with people who want Biology classes to be about animals getting into a boat with a guy with a gray beard. Galileo probably would have been glad to "just get along" but clearly that wasn't going to be the case. Hard core mono theists like George Bush and Osama Bin Laden have another agenda and it's not about getting along with people who don't think like they do.

screee

Atheists and democrats should all be sent to prison camps. Bush should be president for life. If you don't agree you're a terrorist.

Dominoakis

Don't y'all just love my good neighbor screee

Godspal

Its 2000 years past the birth of Christianity. Two. Thousand.
And the Republican party wants to lead us into the future with people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

God help us all.

Bill

Yeap, time to start nailing 'em to crosses again

Jonesy

The post by "Dag" at 01:32 PM about 3/4s up the thread summarizes perfectly what Romney is trying achieve with this speech. And the original blog post that started this thread plays right into it.

He wants to make common cause with the christian conservatives (and other religions) against the "secular liberal atheists" and then hope people forget about Mormonism and what Moromons really believe (the planet Kolob, god lives on another planet with his "wife", Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, Joseph Smith and the Golden Plates, etc, etc...) and how different it is from christianity. He's trying to change the subject

And by reading this blog post and much of what has been written about his speech in the liberal blogosphere, he has been very successful. People have totally taken the bait.

Kurt

Nice story. But you are clueless about the crimes of your country. This is apparent in your idealistic notions early on in the piece where you "cherish" your country's history and it's "principles"

Wake up fool. Your country is a disgrace to those idealistic values. Learn about US foreign policy sometime before lying to yourself about the nobility of your country. You sound exactly like Romney by excusing your country's history and crimes against innocent people.

Brandon O'Hara

"This country was founded for monotheists by monotheists."

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (written in 1796, unanimously approved in 1797 by our founding fathers) says "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." That pretty much undercuts the whole argument that our founding fathers wanted this to be a Christian religious country.

Cluff'n'Stuff

I'm religious, I'm a Mormon. I don't feel that atheism is a religion. I don't feel that Mitt Romney should be President, or even be running for president. Not that I don't think that he is not qualified for the job. But because I think that it's impossible for people to separate the man from his beliefs and focus on what's pertinent. Namely: his qualifications to be our President. By running for President he's only made it more possible for slanderers, maligners, hypocrites, and people who have no respect for what others believe or hold sacred (a few of which have posted here) to drag what I believe in and hold sacred through the mud.

I do not mock atheism, I don't believe that God and Science are two polar oppisites that are always at odds with eachother. I do not hope for the day when faith will be a relic of the past.

I hope in and have faith in a day when people will at least respect eachother. You're entitled to your opinions. I'm sure someone will shred this post. My opinion has been stated, my voice has been heard.

yo

hahah.... Separation of church and state is not a law - not in the constitution - not in the bill of rights - not an ammendment - not in anything except a personal letter.

Why do keep people keep referring to it as if it is a founding principle/law/rule/right/fact rather than a Jeffersonian mention in a personal letter.

B.

I'm surprised no one mentioned this little gem "Any believer in religious freedom, any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty, has a friend and ally in me."

By extension, I guess that makes me a Foe and Enemy. As an atheist who lives in Utah and has been fired for my lack of belief, this speech scares the crap out of me. You never realize until living here just how f*cked up mormons are. Obedience and doctrine is drilled into their naive little heads with almost nazi like precision.

The idea that 'ol Mit could NOT be directly influenced (guided, directed, whatever) by the church is patently absurd.

I was raised Cristian, and I can say without a doubt that the momos are not your average fundamentalists. The more you know about the faith, the scarier it becomes.

If he starts climbing in the polls, be very afraid.

mclaren

This is the second step. The third step will involve requiring non-believers to wear identifying marks: perhaps yellow stars, or possibly pink circles, or mayhap white octagons on their clothing. The fourth step will involve widespread looting and destruction of non-believers' property, including homes and stores, along with the passage of laws making it illegal for believers to marry or have intimate relations with non-believers.

And of course we all know the final step.

Dennis Kucinich 4 President

I'm so tired of hearing about religion in relation to politics. Don't Ask Don't Tell!

mike

Be careful whose comments you are quoting. I've noticed that that the way these comments are set up, it looks like the comments belong to the name above, but in fact, it's the name below. Horizontal line placement issue.

Watched the whole speech. I'm disappointed he only said Mormon like twice, didn't mention anything revealing about it. Also tried to connect Faith with Reason, which often they cancel each other. Reason takes evidence. Faith is in essence belief without evidence. Too bad. I hope Romney sees a big loss here. He's one of the many flip floppers in this race. Oh, I support Gays, Oh now I'm against it. My views on abortion have changed. Blah blah. Of course, you change your "beliefs" to fit your mission romney. a flip and a flop.

vinay

I too am offended by Romney's comments essentially saying that democracy is not possible without religion. However, I think he could have saved the speech (at least in my eyes), if he'd simply replaced the world "religion" with "faith".

I have faith not in God, but in humanity. My parents raised me to be a good person, to take care of my fellow man, to treat every person with kindness and dignity. They instilled me with sympathy for every person on this earth. I never did adopt their religious beliefs, but I did adopt their values, and they did install a faith in me.

So while I do not believe in any religion, I do have faith in humanity. That people share the same values that I do, that they care about other people like I do. While some (many?) do so for religious beliefs, I don't, and I don't care why others do. I have faith that people care about building a better world, that treats all of its people with dignity and taking care of all of them. I'm not naive and admit that not everybody does. But I have faith that most people do, and can collectively work towards those values, regardless of why they believe in them.

Romney has missed that. I interpret his speech as trying to be inclusive; he really tried to include all religions, and show tolerance. What he has demonstrated is that he doesn't understand is that a person can have faith, without religion. That their is faith that doesn't require belief in god. And I bet if he understood the kind of faith I have, he'd be behind it; but he doesn't understand, possibly because he rejects it without even trying to understand it.

Lloyd Starr

i think we are all forgetting there can never be justice or freedom on stolen land! how can america be the land of free, when it was stolen from the free man who roamed following the herd and then the new occupants are forced to work and follow sensible living through pointlessness! and now they also have the cheek to moan about immigration! people need to wake up!

crimeariver

"Freedom requires religion" is a contradiction. If you are truly free, you are free to not have religion.

Jacob

Move to Europe, democratdad. Here in Denmark it would be political suicide for prime minister candidate to talk religion. :)

PC UK

From an overseas (British) point of view, it is scary seeing the separation of the US from the rest of the world, and even scarier in its growing religious fervour.

The president of the us, worlds most powerful person saying that god told him to invade Iraq?? And we are scared of Ahmadinejad? Time to review things i think.

Realitista

Why were you listening to a Romney speech in the first place? You should have known better.

vjack

This is my first visit to your blog. I just found you via Reddit.com. I'm always on the lookout for good political blogs written by atheists, so I'll be back.

I hope those who might actually consider voting for Romney will see this speech as the shameless pandering it was. The GOP field for 2008 is looking scarier by the day.

The comments to this entry are closed.