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December 06, 2007

Comments

Eric

Where do I sign up for the new country with the secular government?

Syarzhuk

I hope "the speech Mitt Romney delivered" is not "an atheist and a father of three young children". I knew Romney has five children, but I doubt he passes that virility to his speeches!

OneZero

It doesn't really matter what any of these idiots says about religion's place in America. Each and every one of the candidates already knows its place: social control and distraction.

Deep deep down I'm sure some of them actually want to tell themselves that they believe in and abide by the principles of their faith, but politics and true religious devotion can not ever mix. Every single candidate up there worships power and money. They use religion (personally and on the public) as a tool to evoke fear and hated and to stifle intelligent discourse.

They use it to keep us separated.

They use it to create imaginary enemies that distract us from solving our real problems: politicians like them who worship power and money.

Now that all the problems that plague this country are becoming more and more obvious and impossible to hide from the average citizen, an escape goat is needed. We sure as hell can't blame the politicians or corporations, now can we? Hmm, we already blamed the Jews for everything a couple of times. Blacks too. Hispanics had their turn. Well, now its the atheists' turn.

Mark

Sir, as a fellow atheist and a Mass-hole unfortunate enough to have Romney as a Governor for a few years, I sympathize and agree wholeheartedly with your concern about where this country is drifting religiously.

Romney will not be our next president, thankfully. He is too radical in his views in either direction and has a personal political agenda that will and always has taken precedence over that of the people.

Please don't define me as not you

Superstitious people are always funny until they get their hands on a little power. Frankly I want two things. (1) The Huckster to be the candidate. (2) For the republicans to be quashed in a 75-25 landslide. I am so tired of these immoral narcissists telling me how to live my life.

vanyali

It wasn't that long ago that Jack Kennedy got elected by saying that his religion didn't matter because it had nothing to do with how he was going to make decisions as President. I think that it's possible we could see another politician say something like that again, maybe even in our lifetimes, but probably not a Republican just before the primaries.

On another note, someone above said that the atheists can't "prove" that God doesn't exist and therefore are no more "right" than the religious. This assumes that every crazy idea must be disproven to be rejected, which is not true. Religious faith is so maleable that it can't be disproven (when something doesn't exist, you can keep changing your description of it to squirm out of any disproof you're ever confronted with) and athiests are not wrong, or irrational, or bad because they don't always bother to engage with the theists on the theists' terms.

RandyBastard

Kim: ...

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Let's say atheism is just another kind of faith or religion.

Then wouldn't Romney's claim to accept all religions as equal mean that he accepts us atheists as equals?

Or, does he really mean he accepts all faiths except Atheism? Oh... and Islam too. He certainly doesn't seem to respect Islam as an equal faith.

Is that the entire list? Just atheism and Islam? Or, are there other kinds of "faith" you'd like to add to the list of no-nos?

Diane

So... can Jews be President?
They do not believe in Christ the same way traditional Christians do.
I would like to ask all the Republican candidates this question.
What a sad state if the answer were no

As a human being and a Democrat, I am very hopeful that the Republican will fail this Nov.
I doubt that they will represent me because of my position that the Democratic party would be more in line with my Christian beliefs.

FlushTheJohn

I think the point was not that you as an atheist are forbidden the fruits of freedom, but rather that freedom as we now know it could not have been achieved by a group of atheists. Have a look at our country's Founding Documents. They could only have been crafted by men of faith.

I too reject the beliefs and mythologies of all religions, although I consider myself a Deist rather than an Atheist. One need not believe in Christ to recognize the critical importance Christianity played in the founding of our nation and the role it plays in the continued existence of the United States. Abandoning faith and caving in to the secularist agenda does indeed mean an end to the United States of America and an end to Freedom as we know it.


truth machine

"This is not hostile to atheism"

Declaring that you can't have freedom without religion isn't hostile to atheism?

Religion makes you stupid, and the more religion the more stupid. There's a well-established inverse correlation between education and religious belief. I wonder what Romney and all these other fools would do if they lost all the technological benefits that have come about via the work of scientists, of whom a very large fraction are nonbelievers.

truth machine

"Atheists embrace all the negative aspects they despise in the religious and they frequently crank them up to eleven.

I say all this not as a Christian, but as an atheist."

You obviously say it as a liar.

Religion not only makes people stupid, it -- especially Christianity -- aslo makes them dishonest.

truth machine

"As a non-religious person I am the very first to state 'humanity needs religion'".

Ah, the Straussian nonsense of Kristol and Himmelfarb. You folks are especially dangerous.

"Without religions for the masses to guide their behavior it would be utter chaos."

Uh, yeah, Scandinavia has gone berserk as religious belief there has declined to near nothing. The fact is that such claims are groundless and fly in the face of evidence and reason.

"All he was saying is that without religion (definitive sets of moral and ethical guidelines to guide the masses)"

Religion is god-belief, not "definitive sets of moral and ethical guidelines to guide the masses". Religion and morality are only related via by usurpation by the church. Morality is evolutionary and secular, and atheists share the same secular ethics concerning social order, fairness, justice, and so on as believers do -- and then some. The percentage of people in U.S. prisons who are atheists is very low, much lower than the percentage of atheists in the population.

truth machine

Romney says:

"In John Adams’ words: 'We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people.'"

John Adams campaigned for President against Thomas Jefferson by presenting himself as a believer vs. Jefferson as a nonbeliever, when in fact they had virtually the same religious views. Adams lost because Americans saw through him.

Steve

As an atheist and a member of the US Armed Forces, I share the frustrations of the non-religious among you. In the military, Religion (albeit usually in a very watered-down, generic sort of form) is too often forced down our throats by well-meaning commanders and chaplains. I am proud to be a citizen of a nation founded on the principle of disestablishment of religion, and yes, there ARE "atheists in foxholes." HOWEVER, I also think that many of the posters are missing the forest for the trees. First of all, by his record, it seems that Romney is more of a jack Mormon than a committed one, and the speech had to do mainly with convincing the Tali-Baptists on the Far Right that despite the Jesus Jammies and baptism of dead people and all of the other pseudo-Masonic mumbo-jumbo of his cult-like faith, he would wink-wink, nudge-nudge nominate "strict constructionist" judges if he were to be elected, which is code for promising to help outlaw abortion. The smart fundies (if there are any) out there will recall that Dubya basically promised the same thing. Think they'll be fooled twice by the same trick? My money's on the "Inteligunt Deeziners" to vote for Gomer, I mean Huckabee, instead. I think we the secular citizens of America, who make up a larger percentage among the intellectual elite than among the general population (that should tell you something), would have less to fear from Romney than from Huckabee. But as long as the Constitution remains in effect, there are limits to what ANY President can do. Thank you Jefferson, thank you Adams, thank you Hobbes and Locke and Hume...

Jay Esbe

Help me spread recognition into fear, and that fear into proper hate of people like Mitt Romney:

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=5115

ElusiveDC

This speech was supposed to be about Mormonism. I have to hand it to Mitt that he was able to go out there and shift the topic to the role of religion in government. He managed to change the subject and get everyone off the idea of thinking about whether or not we should have a Mormon as President.

Personally, I don't care what religion the President professes to believe in or whether he believes in God at all. The thing that concerns me (and should the rest of the country as well) is that non Mormons are not allowed to visit the temple. We have never had a President that was a member of an exclusionary religion. I don't think that we should have a President that gets his spiritual leadership from an undisclosed source.

Hermesten

"Okay, so I'm an athiest, but this sounds a lot like you're jumping up and down, going 'hey! over here! what about me?' on an issue that doesn't involve us."

I hear you, but I also think you're totally wrong. You need to listen to the hate filled and exclusionary comments of people like David: he is close to the true heart of "Christian" America. Many a good Christian, thinking I am a fellow true believer because I homeschooled my children, has confided his hatred of non-believers to me personally. Christian college students have told my son that atheists should be eliminated --by killing them. If these people --the evangelical and fundamentalist crowd-- ever get the State power they are working hard to get they aren't going to leave you alone, they're going to come after you and anyone else without sufficient "faith," including other "Christians." But it's the atheists and agnostics they will target first.

Bob In Pacifica

One could point to Sweden, where about 50% of the people claim no belief in a god, as having a more democratic country than the United States. One could also look at the history of all societies, where pharoahs claimed to be be gods, kings claimed to be God's representative on earth, and were many premiers, presidents and so forth who claimed that God was on their side as they went into war. Our current leader claims to speak with God. One could draw the conclusion that the closer a relationship that a leader claims with divinity, the less humane his behavior.

As for Romney, I would have liked more specifics, like the whole golden tablets and magic glasses thing, and how believing that entitles him to make moral decisions.

vanyali

First, there are Republican athiests . There's nothing inherently Christian about believing in reducing the burden of Government.

Second, yes, the Mormon religion really is that weird, pajamas, golden tablets, secret temples and all. Not that it really matters -- once you bend your mind enough to accept divinity, it's not the secret handshake that makes you kooky.

In fact, I happen to be a Republican athiest from a Mormon/Catholic family (who, coincidentally, Hermesten, is thinking about letting her husband homeschool her kids. You're not the only athiest homeschooler, just close to it.)

You can't really assume all Republicans are Christians, or Democrats enlightened athiests, or athiests Marxists, as I've seen done now and then in these comments.

James Kimberly

The atheist did not make a compelling case. The pre-eminent fact is that Mormons have some absurd belief systems, such as we get our own planet when we die, and coffee and whiskey are bad for us, etc. and they look the other way when they witness plural marriages in the country. Romney's speech left a lot of stuff out, on purpose. He would give us a Mormon cabinet and lots of Mormon judges. The Mormon faith was invested by a twice-convicted waterwitcher and swindler. James Kimberly.

vjack

Trackback does not appear to be working on this site. I wonder what I'm doing wrong.

John Perkins

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

vanyali

But whiskey and coffee are bad for us James Kimberly. The Mormons are actually right about that. Do you really prefer to elect a president who believes whiskey is health food? What does it matter, no one's reading this comment thread anymore anyway.

S.G.E.W.

"What does it matter, no one's reading this comment thread anymore anyway."

I had to post just to prove you wrong. Sorry.

Also:
"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

Nice line. I'm hereby stealing it from you, if you don't mind.

Zazu

Thanks for writing this.

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